A certain Facebook page which shall remain nameless has taken to very selectively editing videos clips of Donna and Arthur Green in a way that does not fairly represent our opinions. You would think from watching the latest video posting that Arthur Green wants only senior students to take AP courses and that he wants to damage the program. Not true. Here is a clip, in its entirety, of a discussion at the Sandown Town Hall meeting on Dec. 7th, about AP courses at Timberlane.
It does not serve our district well to consider anything a sacred cow. Everything should be up for examination, challenge, and academic justification versus cost. Are we offering too many AP courses and doing our students a disservice when only half of them pass compared to the state average of 75%? That is a perfectly legitimate question that Mr. Green explores in this discussion in response to a question from the floor.
Should we be paying the fees for all students to take AP exams? Should we be encouraging a proliferation of AP courses when free and equivalent programs are available through VLACS? Should we be directing students to dual enrollment courses instead of AP as they are more certain to get credit through dual enrollment? The discussion did not go further and it is too bad because these are questions that should be discussed publicly and at the board level and never are. I don’t know the answer, but I would not chop off the head of the person trying to wade into the issue.
Here is an Associated Press article from 2012 about the proliferation of AP courses in high schools and the attendant issues with it. “More students taking Advanced Placement classes, but test pass rate remains about the same.”
While data show students who do well in AP courses do better in college, it’s not clear whether that’s because they took AP. And the evidence is weak for any college benefit for students who take AP courses but do poorly on the exams. Schools with many students struggling in AP may need more focus on skill-building.
“If you have kids that are not necessarily being successful in high-school level courses, it seems like a logical fallacy to think what they need is college-level courses,” she said. “AP without sufficient supports is worse than no AP at all.” http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2012/05/report_more_students_taking_ad.html
AP courses are an important part of our offering and no one is disputing that. The question is how reasonable is it to expand the program when other options are just as good, if not better, and less expensive.
Also see,”Advance Placement classes failing students” from August 2013. http://www.politico.com/story/2013/08/education-advanced-placement-classes-tests-95723.html
timberlaneandsandown 
This is just another example of dirty pool, there are countless examples of threats, stretching the truth, and changing statements and words.
I have to agree. Thanks for saying so.
YA! and you and the greens have used none on this blog, LOL!!
Dirty pool on this blog? Donna just states facts and allows people to draw thier own conclusions.
Angry Taxpayer, that’s one of the funniest things I’ve heard in a looooooooooong time…….
Your name says a lot about you, I can just guess you live in a over 55 community?….empty nester?…..you know the old saying in New Hampshire……….. “if you moved here knowing how most of the taxes are raised then you cry that you can’t afford to live here ….then move”
Bustmore Gas posts from Londonderry. It is nice to know people follow this blog even outside the district and state! And even more flattering to think some might be checking the blog during their working hours.
Thank you!
Or I’m just angry, and pay taxes
Have you spoken to any student currently enrolled in AP classes for their perspective? How about a college student who took AP classes? What benefits did they gather from taking the class? MANY quality colleges are looking at student applications with more favor if they have taken numerous AP classes. It is a reality of the modern educational paradigm, colleges look favorably at AP classes of an applicant. Here is an example: 2 students apply, one has a high school resume with all A’s in classes but no AP classes, second student has a high school resume with 3 or 4 AP classes and a B average. The college will often accept the student with lower grades because they have taken the AP classes.
The trend seems to be that more and more colleges are not accepting AP as transfer credits. Dartmouth, for instance. This means that we are paying for a program that is not delivering its primary purpose – credits – but the school system is using it to increase rigor which it could do on its own. Correct me if I’m mistaken, but I understand that SATs trump AP test scores in acceptances.
Sue,
I didn’t mean to sound snarky in my reply. I wrote it hurriedly. Thanks for commenting.
Total RUBBISH after attending 9 schools over the last 6 months I can tell you everyone mentioned AP classes.
as a parent of three students that have gone on to college Sat scores are becoming less of a value for college acceptance
Interesting. What has been your experience? What did you feel were the acceptance drivers?
I wonder which AP class Bustmore Gas of Londonderry teaches…
Just another tired old crank, who whines about his taxes and watches to much FOX news.
Dear Mr. Gas,
You don’t have to be so hard on yourself.
so…. if students need a more challenging course, lets just say chemistry, if they are going into college to major in chemistry they shouldn’t be offered an AP college level chemistry course? Limiting education seems to be a pattern with you and your husband Mrs. Green
Dear Ms. Green,
I am a long time resident, and have 4 children who are (or have been) students within the district. My oldest graduated in 2013, my youngest is in 6th grade. I have direct knowledge and experience concerning the discussion directly related to AP course offerings and the questions you pose in your post…. I do not agree with your proposed cuts, but that is not why I am posting. I am posting because I feel there are a lot of residents who read your blog and do not fully understand how the AP course offerings work at the high school. I have copied and separated your specific questions and answered them directly based on my own experience with my two oldest children. Reducing the AP offerings is /wrong/. It takes away one of the few things that makes our high school stand out from the rest. It’s taking away opportunity to learn and grow as students and young adults. That is what our job is as parents, teachers, tax payers, & citizens of this district. I don’t expect this to change your mind, but I hope it clarifies things just a bit.
Should we be paying the fees for all students to take AP exams?
As a parent of one recent graduate (graduated 5th in her class), a current senior (also in top 10) both of whom have taken a number of A.P. classes through the school I can say, that YES we should. When my oldest took her AP classes, taking the exam was optional, and parent had to pay the ~ $85 per exam. Given that it was important to show rigor in her classes, and because of how she tracked academically, taking 2 AP classes her junior and 3 her senior year happened to be the only viable option for her. She took both exams her junior year which we paid for. Her senior year, we opted out of having her take those 3 exams. It would have been a stretch financially, and they were not relevant to her selected major and not required for her major at the university she attends now.
Now, her younger sister took 3 AP classes her junior year (AP US, AP Calc, and AP Bio. AKA:” The Unholy Trifecta of AP Classes” due to the rigor and challenge of each class), She took all 3 exams and received *5’s* on ALL 3. All of them. So, yes, Mr. Green, Juniors are MORE than capable and Ready to take on the curriculum taught in AP classes. In her AP US class, 7 Juniors received 5’s. That’s quite a lot, and quite impressive. They did that through determination, learning time management skills, and with the help and encouragement of the very teachers your are proposing to CUT by reducing the availability of AP classes to students.
Anyway… Again, she *had* to take these courses because she was ahead of the normal track academically. She is a STEM kid, and plans to pursue that in college. To be accepted into a competitive school, she need 4 years of math, and by her sophomore year, she had no other options but to take AP Calc last year, and this year AP Stats. So, given no other options, she had to take a class, that the requires an expensive exam at the end of the year. You are saying that because she was ahead of the game, parents should then be expected to pay for a test the district is now requiring her to take? To me, this is why I pay taxes. To make it possible for any student to challenge themselves and take which ever classes are readily available that they qualify for, without putting up barriers such as cost, which for many are very real things to consider.
Should we be encouraging a proliferation of AP courses when free and equivalent programs are available through VLACS?
Again, YES. Have you had any child try to take a class via VLACS? I have. Both my daughters mentioned above have done it. Both are excellent students, with excellent time management skills… These “courses” and the teachers that run them are a nightmare. From delayed reply’s when questions are asked, to poorly constructed curriculum slides and presentations to insisting on parent/teacher meetings and then not answering the phone!!! Its awful. Just because it’s available does not in ANY WAY make it better than sitting in a classroom with your peers and teacher having a thoughtful, challenging discussion. We had so many problems I refuse to let them take any more.
Also, this summer she attended St. Paul’s Advanced Study Program in Concord, NH for a summer class on MicroBiology. During her time there, her peers were highly impressed with the number of AP classes available to her, and it was something she was very proud of. She didn’t realize that to have access to so many different options was the exception, and not the rule. That’s not something I am ready to take away from her younger brothers.
Should we be directing students to dual enrollment courses instead of AP as they are more certain to get credit through dual enrollment?
My daughter is taking AP Chem, and just got her ID Number from SNHU for the class so at the end of the year she can request a transcript from them to present to which ever school she lands at. She will also get credit for her AP Environmental Sci course which also offers duel enrollment. What I’m pointing out is that many of the AP classes already offer duel enrollment, and with the teachers help they are getting the credit they have earned. Specifically, according to the current program of studies, 3 of the 4 available AP Science courses offers Duel enrollment. The Math department offers 1 class, Business and Engineering offers 4, while the Business and Tech department offers 2. The liberal arts courses (History, English, Art and Music) aren’t likely to because course offerings in these subjects at the collegiate level vary quite bit from school to school, so it is best to stick to the standard curriculum of the AP classes, since that course work is well known and recognized by colleges and universities. There are many options available to students looking for duel enrollment courses. I would like to see more, and continue to encourage teachers to create curriculum’s and classes that not only give them college credit whenever possible, but also encourage them to pursue a new found passion through their life on and beyond the walls of TRHS.
The other issue I would like to discuss concerns your quote from your study from 2012 and the correlation between the number of AP classes available and the success rate of the students taking the classes (paraphrasing). I would like to point out that at TRHS not every student who signs up for and AP class will be accepted into the class. They have to be recommended for the class by their current teacher. Your quote equates the number of classes available with the quality of students taking them. It assumes that since more classes are offered then more students will take them regardless of their ability to do the work, when it’s really quite the opposite. Offering more AP classes gives students who QUALIFY FOR THE CLASSES more to choose from. So, for example, my daughter did not really want to take AP Stats this year for her 4th year of math, but it was the only thing available to her. If there was another AP level math class available to her that suited her interests better, she would have taken that over the stats class. Offering more classes does not mean that students will perform better. Offer more means they have more to choose from, and are more likely to take a class that truly excites them, AND fulfills graduation requirements and potentially earn them college credit in the mean time.
– Concerned Parent in Plaistow.
Thank you for this thoughtful reply. When I have time, I will reply.